Hello XXXXX.
Thanks for taking the
time to reply. Based on your
comments below, I recommend
that you talk to more people
who are less ignorant about
the Bible than those whom
you apparently have run into
so far. Your points seem
reasonable enough to those
who only have a superficial
knowledge of the Bible but
when you check things out
thoroughly - with the Bible,
you will find serious holes
in Adventist doctrine.
Ray,
I read
over your presentation [Sabbath
Keeper? Don't Kid Yourself!],
but all of your observations
and challenges have been
answered by the Seventh-day
Adventists long, long ago --
so let me hit some of the
high points here.
Point #1:
Sunday-keepers don't have
one single verse in the N.T.
to support the keeping of
Sunday -- but the Bible is
full of verses describing
the importance of the 7th
day Sabbath.
Immediately after Christ
was crucified and was risen
again the disciples began to
meet together on the “first
day of the week.” John
20:19. Jesus appeared with
them and said, “Peace be
unto you,” showing His
approval upon the meeting.
If it was not proper for
them to meet and if they
needed to be corrected
regarding Sabbath worship,
wouldn't Christ have done so
and wouldn't it be noted in
scripture? Scripture is full
of correction for God's
people. What a strange
"omission" if the Adventists
and others are right about
Saturday Sabbath keeping.
The early Church gathered
together on the first day of
the week in honor of the
Lord’s resurrection; “And
upon the first day of the
week when the disciples came
together to break bread,
Paul preached unto them.”
(Acts
20:7).
Paul told
the Church to collect an
offering on the first day of
the week, since that was
when they met together.
“Upon the first day of the
week let every one of you
lay by him in store, as God
hath prospered him, that
there be no gatherings when
I come.” I Cor. 16:2 Paul
was continually correcting
churches through his
epistles. Funny that he
neglected to "correct" the
Sunday Sabbath practice,
isn't it? Are SDAs smarter
than Paul or the Holy
Spirit? Have SDAs discovered
something that God missed?
Point #2:
The 7th day Sabbath was
instituted during Creation
Week, BEFORE mankind sinned,
so the 7th day Sabbath is
not a "shadow" -- the 7
yearly Sabbaths were shadows
of the work that Christ was
going to do to deal with the
sin problem, and those 7
yearly Sabbaths were the
ones nailed to the cross
when Jesus/Yeshua was
crucified.
Sorry, but *God* rested
on the 7th day, not man.
Sabbath keeping was not a
command for Adam and Eve.
Not until Moses received the
10 commandments on Mt.
Sinai, was it a commandment
(see Exodus chapter 20).
While several of the 10
commandments spoke of sins
that were specific
"actions", Christ pointed
out that we could break
these commandments even
without doing anything -
just by our thoughts. With
that in mind, do you realize
you break the Sabbath by
just thinking about the work
you could be doing on the
Sabbath, whatever day it
is? Jesus said it was the
sin of murder to hate
someone and the sin of
adultery to lust after
someone in your mind, did He
not? Do you think that it is
not equally sinful to be
wishing you were doing
something for yourself
rather than for the glory of
God, on the Sabbath or on
any day of the week for that
matter? It only takes one
sinful thought to "profane"
God's holy day. And we all
have plenty of selfish and
sinful thoughts all day long
every day. Looks like we all
in big trouble, are we not?
We surely are if we are
depending on Sabbath keeping
or anything we DO to help us
get to heaven. We are all
incapable of UNDOING sin.
Point #3:
Isaiah 66:22-23 says that
the Sabbath shall be kept by
ALL of the redeemed
throughout ALL Eternity in
the New Earth -- so there is
no doubt as to its
importance, even for
non-Jews! ALL redeemed
Christians shall forever be
keeping the Sabbath!
I hate to tell you but
you apparently have been
taught to seek the letter of
the law while missing the
spirit of it. No human being
is a proper, perfect Sabbath
keeper. For all have sinned.
Those who are preoccupied
with the letter of the law
do not see that they are
lost spiritually and do not
see that God demands perfect
obedience all the time to
all his commands.
Matthew 23:23 "Woe unto
you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for ye pay tithe
of mint and anise and cummin,
and have omitted the
weightier matters of the
law, judgment, mercy, and
faith: these ought ye to
have done, and not to leave
the other undone."
Mark 12:42 "And there
came a certain poor widow,
and she threw in two mites,
which make a farthing. 43
And he called unto him his
disciples, and saith unto
them, Verily I say unto you,
That this poor widow hath
cast more in, than all they
which have cast into the
treasury: 44 For all they
did cast in of their
abundance; but she of her
want did cast in all that
she had, even all her
living."
Please read James 2:10 as
many times as necessary
until you understand what it
means about YOU and the fact
that you are lost and undone
and no amount of Sabbath
keeping on your part will
help in the least to remedy
the fact that you are hell
bound and helpless to DO
anything about it:
James 2:10 " For
whosoever shall keep the
whole law, and yet offend in
one point, he is guilty of
all."
We know that Isaiah
understood this principle of
his unworthiness and
uncleanness when we read
Isaiah 6:5...
Isaiah 6:5 "Then said I,
Woe is me! for I am undone;
because I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in
the midst of a people of
unclean lips: for mine eyes
have seen the King, the LORD
of hosts."
Whether they realize it
or not, the sabbatarians
teach their followers to
think like the Pharisee in
this passage:
Luke 18:9 "And he spake
this parable unto certain
which trusted in themselves
that they were righteous,
and despised others: 10
Two men went up into the
temple to pray; the one a
Pharisee, and the other a
publican. 11 The Pharisee
stood and prayed thus with
himself, God, I thank thee,
that I am not as other men
are, extortioners, unjust,
adulterers, or even as this
publican. 12 I fast twice
in the week, I give tithes
of all that I possess [i.e.
I KEEP THE SABBATH, I TITHE,
I DO THIS, I DO THAT, I, I,
ETC.]. 13 And the
publican, standing afar off,
would not lift up so much as
his eyes unto heaven, but
smote upon his breast,
saying, God be merciful to
me a sinner. 14 I tell
you, this man went down to
his house justified rather
than the other: for every
one that exalteth himself
shall be abased; and he that
humbleth himself shall be
exalted."
Believe it or not the
Greek word in Luke 18:9 in
this phrase: "I fast twice
in the week" is the
Greek word "sabbaton" which
stands for SABBATH. So, it
is correct to conclude that
the Pharisee was using his
Sabbath keeping as one of
many WORKS that he expected
God to accept, in order to
make himself righteous
before God - just as Cain
expected God to accept him
on his own terms in Genesis
chapter 4.
Point #4:
Jesus said that the Sabbath
would still be kept after
His ascension -- Matthew
24:20 refers to when the
Temple would be destroyed in
70 A.D., nearly 40 years
after Jesus was gone -- and
He still expected His people
to be keeping the Sabbath!
Since the word "day" is
not in the Greek text it is
possible that what is being
referred to in Matt. 24
is the "sabbatical year",
or the seventh year, when no
crops would be found in the
fields and so food would
probably be scarce.
Point #5:
Paul wrote in Romans 14:5
that "One man esteemeth one
day above another; another
esteemeth every day alike.
Let every man be fully
persuaded in his own mind."
Accordingly, each of us is
given the freedom to esteem
a day as special -- so
esteeming the 7th day
Sabbath as special is a
believer's God-given right!
You therefore have
absolutely no business
complaining against the
people who keep the 7th day
Sabbath -- you need to show
them love in Christ because
they are your brothers in
Christ!
"Esteeming" the
observance of a particular
day is one thing, making it
a condition for salvation is
quite another. Also,
Adventists are not *my*
brother in Christ since they
preach a false,
man-centered, works gospel.
My brothers in Christ are
those who have been redeemed
by the blood of Christ and
by the work of Christ at
Calvary *alone*. We do not
trust in ourselves to
cooperate with God that He
might find us acceptable. He
finds us totally
unacceptable, until and
unless God in His mercy
applies the righteousness of
Christ to ungodly sinners
such as ourselves...
Romans 4:5 "But to him
that worketh not, but
believeth on him that
justifieth the ungodly, his
faith is counted for
righteousness."
Romans 5:6 "For when we
were yet without strength,
in due time Christ died for
the ungodly."
Point #6:
The Catholic Church has
clearly boasted for over 15
centuries that Sunday
worship was their creation
-- and the history of that
church is so riddled with
bad spiritual decisions and
evil works that there is NO
WAY for a knowledgeable
student of Christian history
to side with them -- which
is why "Protestants" reject
the errors of the pagan
Roman Catholic Church.
And Rome says the Bible
was their creation, so by
this analogy, we should
discard the Bible, correct?
(along with anything else
they claim to have created)?
Point #7:
Yes, Paul wrote some things
that can "seem" like he is
saying that only grace now
exists and "the law" is gone
-- but don't kid yourself
I never said the law was
done away with. I agree with
Christ that if we love Him
we will keep his
commandments. But the Bible
which says that keeping the
law does not save anyone
because no one can keep it
perfectly...
Romans 3:20 "Therefore
by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be
justified in his sight: for
by the law is the knowledge
of sin."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing
that a man is not justified
by the works of the law, but
by the faith of Jesus
Christ, even we have
believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified
by the faith of Christ, and
not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law
shall no flesh be
justified."
Revelation 14:12 describes
those who reject the mark of
the beast: "Here are they
that KEEP the commandments
of God, and the faith of
Jesus."
The only ones - from
God's perspective - who keep
the commandments are those
whom God saves, since they
have the righteousness of
Christ:
Philippians 3:9 "And be
found in him, not having
mine own righteousness,
which is of the law, but
that which is through the
faith of Christ, the
righteousness which is of
God by faith"
Also, those whom God
saves He puts His spirit in,
enabling them to more
faithfully obey His commands
in scripture.
Paul also wrote that we
would not know what "sin"
was unless we paid attention
to the Law -- (1John 3:4
"Sin is the transgression of
the law.") -- and 2Peter
3:15-16 warns that Paul
wrote some things that were
"hard to be understood" but
that people had better be
careful not to twist Paul's
meaning "unto their own
destruction"!
That admonition in 2Peter
applies to sabbatarians as
well. The WHOLE Bible is
God's law, His law book.
Did you know that God
commands people to do things
they cannot do?
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye
therefore perfect, even as
your Father which is in
heaven is perfect."
Are you perfect? If not,
how then do you expect a
thrice holy God to put up
with you for eternity?
True believers are only
perfect in a legal sense,
and that happens once God
saves them, once He applies
the righteousness of Christ
to them.
Paul upheld God's Law -- but
clearly wrote that we are
saved by grace. BOTH
exist. As soon as you step
out from being covered by
God's grace by continued
sinning, God's Law is going
to be there to nail you as
being an unrepentant
sinner!
How does a true believer
"step out" from being
covered by God's grace?
Christ would have to
unsuffer and undie for that
to happen. You have been
taught a man-centered gospel
that says that salvation is
something you have control
over which is not true. God
saves His elect when He
pleases and He is able to
keep them from falling:
Jude 1:24 "Now unto him
that is able to keep you
from falling, and to present
you faultless before the
presence of his glory with
exceeding joy"
Ephesians 1:4 "According
as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the
world, that we should be
holy and without blame
before him in love: 5
Having predestinated us unto
the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good
pleasure of his will, 6 To
the praise of the glory of
his grace, wherein he hath
made us accepted in the
beloved. 7 In whom we have
redemption through his
blood, the forgiveness of
sins, according to the
riches of his grace"
BOTH exist, law and grace.
Both exist but saving
grace is available to God's
elect ONLY, and only because
the sinless Lamb of God
fulfilled the law and paid
the COMPLETE penalty owed by
those particular ungodly
sinners whom Christ suffered
and died for...
Isaiah 59:16 "And he saw
that there was no man, and
wondered that there was no
intercessor: therefore his
arm brought salvation unto
him; and his righteousness,
it sustained him."
You're in big trouble if
you think your own
righteousness is of benefit
to the salvation of your
soul. Surely, when any man
obeys God's commandments,
there are temporal benefits
such as avoiding jail,
avoiding damage to our
bodies, avoiding problems in
our relationships with
others. But we dare not
think that somehow we
procure, secure or
maintain our salvation or
contribute towards it in
some way.
If you have never done it,
you really need to sit down
and talk with an SDA pastor
-- ask all the tough
questions that you wish, but
be willing to listen to his
answers, because those
answers come directly from
Scripture. If you only talk
to non-SDAs about our
beliefs, then you are not
giving us a fair hearing.
I have done better than
that, I have listened to
several hours of tapes from
a former SDA pastor who grew
up in the church, went to
their college and
seminary, and left it all
after God converted him to
the true Christ and the true
salvation plan of the
Bible. I SUGGEST YOU CHECK
OUT HIS WEB SITE TO FIND OUT
WHAT YOUR CHURCH HAS
MIS-TAUGHT YOU OR NEGLECTED
TO TEACH YOU...
I became an SDA back in
1984, and in the past 17
years I have encountered not
one single solid argument
for me to give up believing
in and keeping God's 7th day
Sabbath -- and I look
forward to being able to
also keep it throughout
Eternity, as should you too,
my friend!
Sorry XXXXX, you're not
really keeping it, just
because you go to church on
Saturday. You have no idea
how holy God is if you feel
comfortable in your own
righteousness.
Romans 10:2 "For I bear
them record that they have a
zeal of God, but not
according to knowledge. 3
For they being ignorant of
God’s righteousness, and
going about to establish
their own righteousness,
have not submitted
themselves unto the
righteousness of God. 4
For Christ is the end of the
law for righteousness to
every one that believeth."
2 Corinthians 10:12 "For we
dare not make ourselves of
the number, or compare
ourselves with some that
commend themselves: but they
measuring themselves by
themselves, and comparing
themselves among themselves,
are not wise."
Have a good and godly
day.
Ray Kane
